S1: Hey , San Diego , it's time for KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. This week , San Diego City Council passed a slew of new parking regulations. We learn more about some of the changes that are coming and the reasons behind them.
S2: These are a lot of tools that other cities have figured out how to use a while ago.
S1: Then we take a closer look into some recent KPBS reporting into how mental health crises are handled by National City Police. That's ahead on KPBS roundtable. For ages , San Diegans have enjoyed free street parking in many parts of the city , particularly on Sundays , but that could be changing. This week , the San Diego City Council passed new parking rules , which could bring about price hikes. Here to talk more about all the details. I'm joined by KPBS Metro reporter Andrew Bowen , along with David Garrick. He covers City hall for the San Diego Union Tribune. Andrew , I want to start with you. Tell us more about the details here.
S2: So some of the minor ones are , you know , rules around valet parking when developers are building a development and they need to use the street parking spaces during the construction time , they have to compensate the city for that revenue loss. The big changes , though , were , as you mentioned , the elimination of a prohibition of charging on Sundays also. Allowance for dynamic pricing so meter rates could vary depending on the location and time of day , and changes to the city's residential parking permit program , which is roughly 50 years old and hasn't really been updated much since then. So a really large array.
S1: Of wide ranging.
S2: A wide range of policy changes around parking.
S1: But David , these , you know , price hikes haven't gone into effect. These changes haven't hit yet. What do we know about you know , where we may go from here and when some of these changes could take effect.
S3: Well I think they're taking effect very soon. The mayor's counting on a lot of them to help balance the budget. The city's got a giant budget deficit , and they're hoping that some of the new revenue is going to help them balance it. And in addition to what Andrew mentioned , they also discussed it's not finalized yet. A plan to start charging for parking in Balboa Park , where it's always been free. That's a very controversial idea , but the city thinks that'll make $11 million a year , and they think it's going to start in January 1st. So a lot of these things are coming pretty quick.
S1: So coming soon. Do we know how much money you know this new pricing could generate. And then also could you talk a little bit about Andrew where this money , you know , gets allocated how it gets used.
S2: I believe the figure for the changes to meter rates or you know , what the mayor's planning to do with dynamic pricing for parking meters was around 18 million. And and that's pretty limited , I think , to surge pricing during Padres games so they could further down the line , perhaps get really detailed with like , well , this street here has higher demand during these hours. So we're going to up the price there. And two blocks away , you know , we don't see as much demand. So we could lower the price there. There's all sorts of things they could do. But I think just so the city can kind of wrap its head around this new framework that they've created for themselves , they're starting with a more limited rollout to dynamic pricing as far as where this revenue can be spent. It's it has to be spent on parking and transportation projects within the meter zone. So , you know , you can't use a revenue from parking meters to fund libraries. However , if the city is , let's say , repaving a road that's within a parking meter zone , typically they pay for that with the general fund. And and what they can do with the meter revenue is reimburse the general fund. So there's sort of this musical chairs of funding sources that doesn't directly put parking meter revenue into other parts of the city budget , but it frees up money that they would otherwise have to spend , you know , for something. And so that's sort of how they they make it work legally. And , you know , quite a bit of revenue could be generated from this. I mean.
S3: The example would be like a streetlight , if you were in a neighborhood where you had to replace the streetlights. Now they spend the general money , but instead they could spend this extra new parking money , and they had the general money left over to spend on a library or a recreation center or firefighter salary.
S2: And they really have not even scratched the surface of what they could be funding with parking meter revenue. There are lots of expenses that could be paid with parking meter revenue , but are not because the meter , the revenue just hasn't amounted to much. They haven't really seen this as as a really robust revenue source. That's really been more to kind of manage the demand for parking and help people access businesses. But , you know , that's changing.
S1: Right ? And then there's this isn't the first pricing change or change in parking this year. Earlier this year , the San Diego City Council actually , you know , doubled the meter rates.
S3: From 125 to 250. And that was a big deal. That was sort of prompted by the budget crisis. That was the mayor's first big move when he knew there was going to be a crisis. Let's change meter rates. And 125 was among the lowest of any metropolitan , you know , popular city in the country. So it was a long overdue change. I think most people feel like , obviously if you're paying it every day , it wasn't overdue in your opinion , but you know , it was unusual. And the mayor often talks about how San Diego needs to think of itself more as a big city. And I think , well , a lot of people don't love these changes. This is going to make San Diego feel more like a big city than it has in the past.
S1:
S2: I believe Los Angeles does that. And so , you know , they they could charge up to $20 an hour , I believe , for , um , during special events for at parking meters. So the city is kind of behind on that as far as dynamic pricing , um , I can recall being in San Francisco , I think , in 2014 , and they had already implemented dynamic pricing. So and they even had a map online where you could look at the different rates for different meters. So I , you know , let's say I was in my , uh , the neighborhood where I was staying. I needed to drive across town. I could go online , check out. Okay , what is the street that has the lowest meter rate ? And , you know , within reasonable walking distance of where I'm headed ? And sure enough , there was always a parking space there because they lower the prices in the areas where they want to attract more cars and relieve the pressure , you know , and relieve the demand for parking in those premium spots. That's what really the pricing , the dynamic pricing is meant for.
S3: Well , I think that's a fair point to make. I mean , people look at it as a terrible thing. Well , I'm going to pay more in the city is is raking in the cash , but it really does create churn in spots that are really like in demand. Let it let instead of letting somebody monopolize a spot near Petco Park for 250 an hour , that's going to be $10 an hour. And as Andreu points out , some underutilized spots , maybe they could charge less. So there really is it's going to also open up opportunities to park and make it easier to find parking. Sometimes. Not always , but sometimes.
S1: But your point there , Andrew , is that it might go kind of both ways here , right ? I think we think of , you know , everybody at one point has tried to get an Uber after a concert and been like , I'm sorry , how much ? Right. But you can. Your what your argument here is like we might actually see , you know , dips in certain areas when we might be looking for parking in a different part of town. Right.
S2: I think for the very cost conscious driver , they will be able to find ways to save money on parking. Um , under this new framework , because , you know , if you're willing to walk a couple blocks or to travel to your destination outside of peak hours , you know , then then that will allow you to save some money. There's one other thing I wanted to mention in just this whole package of reforms , and we shouldn't , um , you know , underestimate this , the importance of this. They made it a lot easier to actually install new meters. So where there are currently no meters at all , no pricing of the street at all ? Um , previously they had to set up a time limit zone and then do a lot of monitoring to see , okay , how is this performing or whatever. Now they can say , all right , we think that there's a high demand for parking here. We're going to skip all of those extra steps. We're going to we're just going to say , you know , there should be meters here. And and that really opens the floodgates to them being able to , you know , grow the revenue from this , from this , uh , from from metered parking.
S3: Well , I think that really matters too , because , as you know , Kearny Mesa and San Jose have already started the ball rolling and possibly adding meters in those neighborhoods. And we've added them now about three years ago. So you already had seen an increase in the number of neighborhoods with meters. And I think this change Andrew is talking about is going to accelerate that. A lot of neighborhoods you might not even think of as where you would see meters. It's so much easier now. I think they'll give them a try because there's there's less barriers to entry on that.
S1: David , could you talk more about what neighborhoods may be affected ? I mean , I think we spoke a little bit before we got started about a beach parking , for example , which is another space where there's certain city beaches we've gotten used to having free parking , right ? Right.
S3: Well , for sure. I mean , that's a big part of this plan that we haven't really touched on yet , because the city needs Coastal Commission approval to start charging more at the beaches , and that's involves bureaucracy and red tape , but sounds like it's doable from from what I've heard so far. And that's going to make a huge change because mission Bay Park , which is a gigantic parking lot in some ways. I mean , part of it that they're going to charge there , they'll be charging at Beach Park parking lots like tourmaline. And the plan is to do the dynamic surge pricing and metered spots in in PPB and Mission Beach and OB. And so you're going to see really I mean , on a July Saturday parking at OB , it could be at ten bucks or even more , which but makes sense in a sense , like some people are willing to pay that and there's just no spot now.
S1: So beach parking as someone that lives here , it's a nightmare , right ? Exactly.
S3: So ? So there'll be more spots , but you're going to pay. So that's sort of , I guess the giving the take. If you live out in Claremont or Santa or El Cajon and you've been going to the beach on Saturdays and Sundays and searching for two hours , now you're only going to have to search for five minutes , but you're going to pay $20 instead of $4 , something like that.
S1: So , David , the city council , you know , passed this this reform package for parking and the vote , you know , was like a 5 to 2 vote. Council members Marnie von Wilbert and Vivian Moreno voted no.
S3: I mean , Vivian Moreno represents a lot of low income residents in the city's South Bay neighborhoods , and she felt a lot of those folks go to Balboa Park , go to the beach , and , you know , they're on a tight budget , and this is going to make it harder for them to go enjoy those special places of the city. That was the argument she made. Val Wolpert was complicated. She lives in. She represents district five. That's inland , north , north part of the city , which Scripps Ranch and Rancho Mosquitoes and Rancho Bernardo. And she said her residents , they don't have mass transit. They can't get to these places without a car. And so you're really making it much harder for them to visit some of the places not only that are in their city , but that their tax dollars help fund their tax dollars , pay for improvements at mission Bay , their tax dollars pay for improvements at Balboa Park. And she felt it really was unfair to create an extra barrier for folks who don't have a transit line and can't really get to these places without a car , and now you're going to charge them a lot more money.
S1: So , Andrew , we've been kind of talking about some of these measures and how they would look. And you know , what times and the prices and all those kind of things. But there's sort of a larger issue involved here and that that's climate.
S2: So from that standpoint , I think when when somebody has to factor in the cost of parking into their decision of how they're going to get somewhere , um , you know , it's it's just a little bit of a little voice in your head saying , well , maybe there's another option , or maybe you could save a couple bucks by taking the bus. Or maybe there's another place for you to go that doesn't require you to , you know , have to drive. So I think just the the fact that more , uh , putting a putting a price on more parts of the city for , for parking your car is going to have some kind of impact. It's essentially a stick and , you know , to deter someone from driving. On the other hand , the revenue that you raise from parking meters can be used as a carrot to improve the alternative options for people to get places. So , you know , this isn't , I think , anywhere on the horizon in San Diego , I think I don't think they've fought , I don't think they've thought far ahead enough for this. But they could theoretically fund MTS with parking meter revenue if you know it's within the correct zones and everything. They could create a parking meter zone that spans an entire trolley line and have the or a trolley line that hasn't been built yet , and they put parking meters all over the streets , and they use that revenue to build new transit infrastructure. So I think it's just it opens up a lot of opportunity for , um , for carrots and sticks , disincentives and incentives for people to get around this city without driving and without burning fossil fuels.
S3: Well , it'd be interesting to see if people start using the trolley to get to Padre games more with the surge pricing , because that's sort of the first thing. And then , you know , there's trolley stops close to Balboa Park , not really in Balboa Park , but if Balboa Park start charging for parking , it'll be interesting to see if the trolley stops near it. And the bus lines that serve the park have a surge in usage , and I think it'll be interesting if they don't , too , because that means that people just they love their cars so much they're willing to pay.
S1: So , you know , as with any passing new law , you guys cover City Hall and the politics around it. Um , they're often concessions around packages and bills. And there were some here it sounds like. And this one , some of it kind of comes back to these residential parking permits. Andrew , can you tell us more about how that kind of fits in and what what we know about how that will fit into the parking picture going forward ? Yeah.
S2: So this change came from Council member Stephen Whitburn , who represents the urban core of San Diego. So downtown , North Park , Hillcrest , these are in his district. And I think he , more than the other council members , has a lot of constituents who have to park their cars on the street. And the point he brought up in the council meeting was , well , a lot of them rely on those free Sunday meters , metered spots to store their cars because more people tend to be at home on Sundays and , you know , having those spots available for them to keep their cars for the day is really helpful. And so he negotiated with the mayor's office and got a language added into this package of reforms that says before the city can start charging for parking on Sundays in a residential zone or a mixed use zone. So where people are actually living , not just a , you know , a commercial area , the city has to offer residential parking permits to those people. And and so , you know , basically and then in addition to that , they streamlines the creation of the process for creating or expanding residential parking permits. So this program , the residential permit program was created in the 70s. It was mainly meant to address people in low , dense , relatively low density neighborhoods who live near major employers. So , for example , the hospitals in Hillcrest that are surrounded by a single family homes right here where we're sitting in Sdsu , the college area across the street is a pretty low density area , and there were folks complaining about people commuting to these major employment centers and then parking in the residential streets. So the permit the program was really designed to make sure that people are paying for parking at their workplace and not spilling over into the residential neighborhoods. Today , in the 21st century , I would say the bigger problem that people have with parking is just that there's not enough of it. A lot of people have , um. A lot of people have apartments or homes that don't come with off street parking. And so the street parking is really all they have. And that just creates more demand. And , and uh , and for , for those spots. So really what , what the , the change does is allow residential parking permits to be used to manage parking demand in any , pretty much any neighborhood in San Diego.
S3: I think that could be a big change , because that's been sort of a forgotten about program. It's only in a few neighborhoods. Not that many people take advantage of it. And even though it was a compromise with Whitburn , ten years from now , we might look back and that might be the biggest change from this. They might be all over the city because every neighborhood is willing to do it , I think. And they're only $9 a year for a permit right now. The city could make it higher , but even if they make it a little higher , I think most people will be willing to pay 20 bucks a year to guarantee themselves a parking spot within a block or two of their house , right. Which they're not guaranteed. Now , and as the city continues to build dense housing , it's going to get harder and harder and there'll be more and more incentive.
S2: And I'll add , you know , the city made a policy change several years ago that requires newly constructed apartments to charge separately for a housing and for parking. So this is actually unveiling to us what the true cost of parking is. There's a , you know , some , um , apartment buildings , newly constructed apartment buildings in my neighborhood , and the parking spots could be like $50 a month. And , uh , whereas otherwise , you know , it would have just been included in the price of your apartment. So $50 a month is a whole lot more than $9 a year. And the city is essentially this is , I think , one of the interesting things we're actually learning how much parking costs. And , um , you know , if the city wants to charge , say. I mean , like , we could say $10 a year or $10 a month. Even somebody who's currently paying an arm and a leg for their private parking spot in their , in their , um , in their building , uh , might be incentivized to stop paying for that and instead buy a residential parking permit because they could save quite a bit of money , and then that could then lower the price of the parking spaces that are in that building. So there's just a whole lot of like , market settling. I think that has to happen. And then it'll take a while , probably as people start to kind of internalize these prices and , and , and , you know , figure out what's the best deal for them. But , um , you know , really , I would say the biggest change is this there's going to be more places on the street that you have to pay to park.
S1: I mean , David , there was a citywide parking demand study last year , kind of in the run up to this.
S3: It found there was a lot of demand on Saturdays and Sundays , and that they thought Sundays would be lucrative enough to pursue. Um , you know , it found that , uh , Bishop Bay Park and Balboa Park how filled the spots were and that that it would be financially viable to , to charge in those places. I think the city knew that. But I think having a study , you know , it gives you a lot more confidence to move forward. I think one thing we should talk about is that Shauni Rivera pressed hard at this meeting to get the mayor to consider letting non-residents , uh , residents , pay less than non-residents. It's not clear how that's going to work out , but it's sort of an interesting concept , you know , that that the taxpayers who pay for the maintenance and the buildings of Balboa Park and pay for the , the , the paving and all that , they should pay less to park there. Of course , it would cost the city a lot of the revenue that they're hoping to get from this , but it does seem sort of fair. And it was a kind of a hot debate. I don't know what you thought about it.
S2: Yeah , I think I mean , there's there's already a model for charging city residents less than non-residents at the municipal golf courses. They offer quite a bit of a discount for city residents. And , you know , from a political standpoint , I think it's a winner for certainly for Councilmember Ella Rivera , because he can then go to his constituents and say , hey , I negotiated a better deal for you all , and we're going to make those outsiders , you know , the the folks who drive in from , you know , Encinitas or , you know , out or just tourists , they're going to be paying more than you are. So , you know , politically , I think it's a it's , um , it could be very popular. Uh , operationally , I think it remains to be seen how feasible it is. You know , uh , are are people going to have a card that they , they tap that will give them that discount ? Is there going to be a human being who's having to check their driver's license to make sure the address says San Diego or whatever ? I mean , they're.
S3: Against that detail. The labor cost might , you know , take , you know , right.
S1: Has the mayor , given his.
S3: His staff , finally agreed every time Elmo has brought it up before he is brought up before the mayor has been silent that I've seen. But his staff agreed at the near the end of the meeting that they will try to come up with a plan to incorporate that. So.
S1: So. So , you know , we talked about this parking study in advance of this. But Andrew , you also brought up this case study from actually my hometown of Chicago and kind of some potential lessons to be learned from some , you know , parking reforms. They went through a lot more like about 15 years ago or so at this point. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. So prior to 2008 , uh , the city of Chicago had not updated its parking meter rights in a really long time. So they really had no idea what like the market price of a street parking spot would be. So people were paying really , really low rates for parking there. And and it didn't really do its job of , of , you know , making sure that spaces are available. Um , then uh , Mayor Richard Daley , uh , decided he wanted to , uh , privatize street parking. So he auctioned off a long term lease. I think it was close to 100 years , maybe a little less. Of these public parking meters and eventually got , you know , a deal. Struck a deal with a bunch of Wall Street investors. They took ownership , essentially ownership of the parking meters , jacked up the rates. And , um , now , uh , and they made back their investment in , like , a couple of years. So now if you go to the city of Chicago , you're going to pay a lot for street parking , and you will always have a parking space available on pretty much every block. So that's , you know , the power of pricing. What I think is really important for San Diegans to understand about this story is the city of Chicago could have made that decision on its own. It could have raised the parking meter rates and had all of that money coming into the city coffers to improve , you know , city infrastructure to , to to keep services running when they otherwise might have been cut. Instead , all of that money is going to the pockets of these wealthy hedge fund managers. So there you know , I think it's a real cautionary tale for cities that don't see the value in street parking and instead decide that they want to subsidize it by making it free or really cheap there. And I think it also shows the potential power of , of , you know , charging a market price for meters because the city of Chicago could be rolling in that dough. You know , the city of San Diego could be rolling in dough from these changes in a couple of years. And maybe , you know , at that point , we won't have the kind of potholes that riddle all of our streets or all the broken streetlights , I think really like long term. It it's it'll be interesting to watch how much of the city is spending , uh , how much of the money that the city spends on infrastructure maintenance is coming from parking meters. And how much of it comes from other revenue sources ? I would expect that it'll be changing.
S1: As we look to to wrap here. David , I want to kind of ask you , I mean , you kind of refer to this a little bit , you know , we're talking about these particular parking reforms , but there's a larger sort of philosophical issue you see around San Diego.
S3: They don't people who live here don't want to live in those places. They like being a smaller city where you can get everywhere easily. Things are cheaper , you know , and I think , you know , the city is maybe going to shed that image as part of this. Not intentionally , I mean , but I think this is going to change the city's image. It's going to be harder to find places to park for cheap. It's it's it's going to have a different feel , I think , in an important way.
S1: And Andrew and we've talked even just last week about ADUs and this relationship with growth that I think David was talking about there. This , you know , concern over growth that San Diego historically kind of seems to have struggled with.
S2: Um , you know , they're these are a lot of tools that other cities have figured out how to use. A while ago , as I mentioned , uh , San Diego has been , um , more conservative , you know , a little bit slower to update these , these , uh , rules. And so I think it signals San Diego kind of coming into its own as a major city. Um , and , you know , just to the point of , like , it's going to be harder to find , um , cheap or free parking. Um , there's a book called written by a researcher called Donald Shoup. He's very famous in the world of parking. Uh , um , you know , people who are into parking policy. The title of the book is called The High Cost of Free Parking. And really the the research that he did shows that even when parking is free , um , there is a cost to it. It results in more people driving around , circling a block , looking for a parking space that increases the wear and tear on the roads. It increases emissions. It's there's a value in the time that you have to spend in , you know , trying to find a parking space. And so really what they're what these reforms , I think will do is shift the cost from those external and sort of hard to pinpoint , um , uh , areas like , you know , emissions from cars or wear and tear on roads and , and actually put a , put it down in dollars and cents and , and , you know , as much as we hate paying for parking , I also hate not being able to find parking. And so I think that's really the benefit that might come from this is just making it easier.
S1: Thanks , both of you for joining us and kind of breaking this down. This has been great.
S2: Thanks , Andrew.
S3: Thanks for having me.
S1: When we come back , multiple legal settlements involving national city police are leading to questions over police's role in responding to calls of mental distress. That's ahead on roundtable. You're listening to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. In recent years , National City has paid to settle three separate civil rights lawsuits brought by the families of people who died after police officers confronted them. The cases have reignited questions about how police respond to people experiencing mental health crises. Corey Suzuki covers the South Bay in Imperial County for KPBS , and he's been reporting on this story. So your reporting takes a closer look into the deaths of three men who all died as a result of encounters with National City police. Can you tell us briefly about them and their stories ? Yeah.
S4: So these three men , their names were Earl McNeil , Tony Wilson and Brian Umana. And their deaths during or as a result of confrontations with police officers , been around for years between 2018 and 2021. And just just to say , the reason that we say had a fatal encounter with officers in these cases or died after being confronted by officers , is because each person didn't necessarily die while they were in National City Police custody directly , but in each case , it was the the confrontation with officers that really raised questions about the circumstances of their death. So the first the first case , Earl McNeil , the confrontation with national city police officers happened. This was in 2018. McNeil called the police department from outside the phone , actually literally right outside the National City Police station in downtown. He said he needed help. He he asked for help. He said that he was high and he said that he wanted to turn himself in. So officers arrived. They confronted him , and they used a restraint device called a wrap to bind his arms and legs. They used another restraint , a mesh face covering called a spit hood , to to cover his head , and they put him in the back seat and proceeded to the county jail. And when they arrived at the jail , McNeil stopped breathing. Officers called paramedics. But two weeks later , McNeil died. In the second case , it was a year later Tony Wilson. Officers confronted Wilson outside of a home in National City where he was standing on the porch. They sort of ordered him to. In the body camera video that's been released of the incident , you can see them ordering him to put his hands behind his back. He raises his hands immediately as they arrive , turns around , drops to his knees , but is sort of pleading with them. He's. He seems afraid. And the officer sort of approach him. They force him to the ground. They're pressing him against the ground. And one of the officers , Jonathan Taylor , in an investigation that NBC seven did at the time. Around a year later , they found that Taylor used his Taser five times on Wilson within a very short time span , repeatedly firing it into his shoulder , something that you can also see in the video. Then the third case , Brian Umana. This was around two years later , after after Wilson's death , and Umana was walking along a road in National City near a storage facility in the early hours of the morning. It was kind of a rainy morning and he was holding a machete. He was barefoot , and National City Police officers confronted him. They had a K-9 unit , a dog with them , and they tased and shot him eight times and in all three cases. What connects these encounters is that the families of these three men say that each of them were in the middle of mental health crises. They were experiencing mental health crises for , you know , a range of different reasons. But that was the shared experience that that each of them had when they were confronted by police officers. That encounter ended with with these three men dead.
S1: So , as you said , that kind of through line being the mental health crises that they're experiencing , and how that potentially could have been handled differently by the police or by some other. The response could be different from authorities. We'll talk more about that. But I want to talk a little bit more about the case of of Brian Umana , because that's , you know , really where your piece kind of hones in on. And you introduce us to Brian's brother Roberto.
S4: In some ways , he. And I think this is the case for all of these , the families of these three men. But in more recent years , Roberto especially , has just been a really persistent voice in trying to get some form of accountability for his brother's death , get some answers to the questions that he has about about his brother's death. Roberto and Brian. They were pretty close. Um. Brian was Roberto's older brother. He , um , he describes Brian as a pretty , pretty quiet person overall who liked comedy. He liked collecting shoes. They used to spend a lot of time going to the beach and would walk at , like , Sunset Cliffs. Um. And Roberto , um , says that , you know , like , like any younger brother. He kind of looked up to Brian. Um , so they were they were really close. And when Brian was killed by National City police officers , that for Roberto , that raised a lot of questions. The circumstances , the fact that it was in the early hours of the morning that that Brian wasn't wearing shoes at the time that , um , it was raining. Um , but his pants were sort of. He was he was , you can see in the video , um , that has been released , the body camera video , the cuffs of his pants are soaked with water. He was also carrying a Covid mask along with the machete. And so for Roberto , that really raised a lot of questions about just the fact that it seemed like to him that officers should have known that something was off about the situation , and that that Bryan was not necessarily in a right state of mind. At first , it was just a question. He he wondered , did the officers do the right thing ? Should they have handled the situation differently ? And so he started asking those questions , going to reaching out to attorneys , going to city council meetings. That was kind of where where it started for him. And he has just been since then a really a really , again , a persistent voice in trying to get more information , get get information about how Brian died , about how these other two men died , and what that says about policing and public safety and leadership by elected officials and national city.
S1: So you get a sense from Roberto , like how he wishes Brian's case was handled that night by authorities , by police. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. Well , I think some of the specific questions that Brian had were , you know , officers in the body camera video , you can see officers interacting with Brian a little bit at one point. One of them asks about Brian's name , and you can hear that Brian. Brian says his name. And , uh , so there were these moments where the officers were interacting with him , and it seemed like they were able to get some , um , responses. But I think in Roberto's eyes , when you see how the events unfolded , the presence of the K-9 unit , the dog , for example , um , the the way the officers spoke to Brian , which was , I mean , for the most part , they were really ordering him like shouting orders at him. They were they were ordering ordering him to drop the machete. Then you see , kind of officers , uh , within a really quick span of time , you see the officers move in close. One of them fires a Taser. It sort of doesn't work. Brian kind of flinches , but then he turns around and you do see him raise the machete and machete , turned towards one of the officers , and that's when the other two officers opened fire. Evan Davis and Michael Portelli , one of them with a handgun , one of them with a high powered AR 15 rifle , and shoot Bryan eight times. I think that one of the real questions that Roberto had about that sequence of events was he felt like the officers didn't do anything to de-escalate the situation , to try and bring down the temperature , try and speak more openly with Brian , and to try and avoid using violence as a way to to bring the situation to an end.
S1: And then I'm talking about what's known as Peart and McCoy. MCT. These are two county programs that both provide alternatives to police responding to , you know , people experiencing mental health issues. Can you talk more about those programs ? You know , what the differences there and how they play a role into any of these cases ? I mean , I know the first case you mentioned was 2018. Bryan's death was in 2021 , where I think at least , you know , one of his programs was up and running by then , right ? Yeah.
S4: That's right. There are sort of a number of sort of these kinds of mental health responders or crisis responders that you , you've described that are active now in San Diego County and particularly in National City. You can sort of think about it , these teams as sort of two different layers of response. At the time , there was only one layer of response that is specifically , you know , clinically trained , licensed , trained to to interact with somebody who's in crisis. And that was hurt. Like you said , the psychiatric Psychiatric Emergency Response Team , which is a county run program and has been around for at this point , you know , decades. But this program , the way it works is that the county it's a partnership between the county government and local police departments. So you'll have armed officers who have some additional mental health training , training on how to interact with people in crisis. And then you have licensed clinicians who are responding , who are either trained nurses or some or some other form of trained clinician who are responding alongside them. So you have sort of these two , this pairing of of people in those cases. I mean , that program has really been celebrated in some ways. I mean , the the San Diego County grand jury said that the the program was making a really big difference when they evaluated it back in the mid 20 tens. And , um , so so it has in some ways , um , made a difference. Um , at the same time , the program has also experienced some difficulties with staffing , finding enough people to fill those roles of serving as clinicians alongside armed officers , and also to , I think , what other advocates have pointed to or other critics of the program had pointed to is that still you have the situation where armed officers were also responding , which , you know , in a lot of cases can be putting somebody into a frightening situation or a worrying situation. The question there , I think , is , are armed officers the best person to respond when someone is in crisis and may need some different form of help that police officers aren't equipped to. And so the part team was kind of the first layer that was meant to address that. And they were in place at the time of both Earl McNeil's death and Tony Wilson's death , and then Brian Romano's death in 2021. And I haven't been able to get exact answers on whether either whether Pert clinicians were deployed to the scene or if they were not , which it seems that they were not. Why not the National City Police Department ? I reached out to them multiple times to to try and speak to them for this story. The police leadership. I hope to sit down with the police chief and kind of talk in detail about some of these cases. But the police department , through a spokesperson , declined multiple interview requests. So we don't know for sure what their availability was at the time. Of those that officers responded in both of those cases by police.
S1: You mentioned the lack of response from the national city police and to some of your questions. But , you know , one main question you're trying to answer here is what lessons have been learned from these tragedies.
S4: Now , Nashville City says that's not an admission of wrongdoing , necessarily , that they're not saying that their officers did anything wrong and they've said as much publicly. But I think that string of settlements and these lawsuits is really what raises has raised in a greater way these questions about how the police department is responding to people in crisis. I talked to Joanna Schwartz , who's a professor at UCLA and an expert nationally on police misconduct litigation , about this. And she said that really these cases where you have civil rights lawsuits being brought against police departments are opportunities for local governments and for law enforcement to be evaluating their practices , trying to understand what new information they could they could they could get from a case like this where lawyers are doing depositions And documents are being unearthed in discovery , producing more information that than may have come out in , say , the city's own internal investigation. Schwartz really , really sees these as as a chance for cities like National City to do kind of like a greater self-reflection on their processes and try and understand better what led to these deaths and how to prevent them. But what I found through this , through my reporting , is that the city as a whole is saying very little , and especially the police department are saying very little about what they're doing differently. What , if anything , they've learned from these cases.
S1: I hope we come back and share more as this story develops. You can read Corey's full story at KPBS. Org. I've been speaking with Corey Suzuki. He covers the South Bay and Imperial County for KPBS. Corey , thanks.
S4: Thanks so much , Andrew.
S1: When roundtable returns , we get caught up on some other headlines from the week in the roundup. Stay tuned. We're back after the break. Welcome back to KPBS roundtable. I'm Andrew Bracken. It's time now for the Weekly roundup. And joining me is KPBS producer Ashley Rush. So , Ashley , we don't have a lot of time this week. We're going to go quick , but also we're going to try to focus on some lighter stories this week. We know there's a lot going on in the world , so we're going to kind of lighten the tone here a little bit. So yeah.
S5: The Grammy Award winning musician is actually partnering with an Oceanside coffee shop , Jeter's Coffee Pub. It's literally a mom and pop store run by a wife and husband duo. And this is just a really feel good story. You know , those owners were considering closing due to rising costs , and I guess Jason Mraz wanted to become a business partner because he's been coming there since 2004. So , you know , now he wants to bring local musicians and some comedians there to try out their new sets.
S1: Yeah , and I love that piece of it. Just that real local connection. And bringing in local performers is really cool. I think in the Starbucks era , you know , we've lost a lot of that over the last couple of decades. So it's cool to , you know , it's a really cool story. Yeah.
S5: Yeah. And the official grand opening is July 12th , so add that to your calendar. Great.
S1: Great. I have a story that's at least good news for , I think , yoga enthusiasts in San Diego. A court ruling this week overturned a city ban on free yoga and other fitness classes at local beaches and parks. I think this is something that really took off over the pandemic. At least , that's when I noticed that these yoga classes just kind of boomed around certain parks and beaches , and the city in 2024 basically required a permit , ultimately kind of banning a lot of them. So a federal appeals court now this week says that move by the city was unconstitutional. And we'll see. I guess the the city hasn't decided if they're going to proceed to that. So I don't know , you might be seeing more of those yoga fitness classes coming back to beaches and parks around you soon. Our last sort of feel good story here involves like one of our colleagues dressing up as a bear. Right , Ashley ? Yes.
S5: So in case you missed it , Alex Winn went full bear mode for his latest story. And it's all about the San Diego Humane Society , Ramona Wildlife Center. They're caring for a black bear cub. They found that they're trying to release back into the wild. So as they feed the cub , wildlife specialists there are dressing up as a bear to prevent this , like unnatural attachment to humans.
S1: It's really important to kind of keep it separate from humans and not get familiar.
S5: Right , right. So they're dressing up with a bare fur coat to disguise themselves , and even mimicking some of the bear scents that a bear would have , which I don't know what that smells like , but pretty cool.
S1: But in the story , you may not get the sense of the smell , but you do get some cute images of of the cub , but also of Alex putting on the bear mask and then also the wildlife worker fully engaging with the cub. All right , that's all the time we have this week. I've been speaking with KPBS producer Ashley Rush. Ashley. Thanks again.
S5: Thank you.
S1: That'll do it for our show this week. Thanks so much for listening. You can listen to KPBS roundtable anytime as a podcast. This program airs on KPBS FM at noon on Fridays again Sundays at 6 a.m.. If you have any thoughts on today's show , you can email us at roundtable at KPBS or leave us a message at (619) 452-0228. Roundtable's technical producer this week was Brandon Truffaut. The show was produced by Ashley Rush. Brooke Ruth is Roundtable's senior producer. I'm your host , Andrew Bracken. Thanks again for listening. Have a great weekend.
